Jutland! Space times.

Do stuff in space.
 
HomeCalendarFAQSearchMemberlistUsergroupsRegisterLog in
Rumour: "Some say the bird isn't actually a pilot."
Episode 4 is Today
RUMOUR: "Speaking of feathers, there's been a sudden increase in the amount of feather pillows available. Weird"
Rumour: I hear Cortez has the penguin's sidearm stashed away somewhere.

Share | 
 

 [Complaint] Plot Armor

Go down 
AuthorMessage
Rhydain
Petty Officer Second Class
avatar

Posts : 18
Join date : 2012-06-03
Age : 24
Location : Amurka

PostSubject: [Complaint] Plot Armor   Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:48 pm

UNDERSTANDING that military technology has evolved.
ACCEPTING that shield technology would render some rounds useless.

I put forth my complaint that Plot Armor is becoming more and more ubiquitous amongst this community, I'm not simply talking about Marine shielding, but also the armoring on uparmored EVA suits, and the rounds used. Furthermore, I'm putting forward that the logistical side of this server is rather uninformed.

DESPITE the fact that it is a military vessel, containing a complement of marines (Which doesn't make much sense if the boats not going for planet fall or carrying Marine Supplies.) DESPITE the fact that it contains no WMD payloads, and DESPITE the fact that the ship is ostensibly a "Science Vessel", the ship is woefully unprepared for Anti-Boarding measures. The single armory with one easily sealed chokepoint would DICTATE the use of concussive based explosive countermeasures against any boarding force. The narrow hallways and myriad billet rooms leading to all of the important parts of the ship would require AMPLE use of LETHAL EXPLOSIVES.

MARINE SHIELDING is far too powerful, sixty rounds is two full magazines of a rifle, four from most of the pistols, and that's assuming every round hits. Unless the MARINE CONTINGENT consists of one guy with a broad sword, they're literally impossible to kill, wound, or detain when they're in their ARMOR. Close Combat is acceptably used and responded to by most players, but it seems most firefights, or rather any gunplay, revolve around the simple idea of being a step or so away from the inciting shooter. The shields do not work at point blank, but it seems the definition of point blank is not the distance at which the fire arm's elevation must be adjusted for bullet fall (Which is the definition.) but rather the distance of a visor from muzzle to skin. Accept that either PERSONAL SHIELDS are ineffective in the confines of the ship, or tone down the amount of resistance.

THE EASE of conscience with which some characters doom entire swathes of the crew, is appalling, this is not exactly a plot armor in of itself, it is however armor to their characters.

I am not innocent, of playing a conscienceless character, SUFFOC easily wraps his fingers around the throats of marines or puts the barrel of his gun to the heads of Captains, but I am however, innocent of calling for the extermination of entire divisions of the ship.

KOVALEV, easily turned off the shipboard A.I. (Despite knowing nothing of her functions, he is trained for intelligence operations, not engineering.) DESPITE the A.I. controlling the life support functions of the ship itself (And very likely the 100~ People on Ice)
CORTEZ, easily ordered the violent disarming of security (Which at this point was when the Security-Marine hostilities were coming to a peak.)
THE CAPTAIN, easily relinquished her post, despite the fact she was in a secure position and "Winning" knowing full well that SECURITY had supported her and that the MUTINY was out for blood. (Though this could be a quirk of character, it is also most certainly plot armor on Cosmic's part, as furthering the hostility would likely have resulted in some sort of LOLVENTTHATSECTION asspull)

In Short, the Jutland is starting to get pretty bogged down in plot armor. I know none of us like to see our characters be redshirts, but in order to keep this small map and player base interesting, we need to either expand our rosters or change them up from time to time.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
CosmicCommander
Narrative Development Administrator
avatar

Posts : 109
Join date : 2012-05-28

PostSubject: Re: [Complaint] Plot Armor   Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:18 pm

Loving the UN style resolution format.

I'll let the others discuss the other elements, but the part regarding the Captain is a bit confusing to me. I don't recall her relinquishing her post; every time she was at gunpoint. When the first mutiny happened Kovalev and the Marine Sarge had a gun to her head, when she tried to negotiate she was shot. When the second coup happened she was trapped in a vehicle and said vehicle was getting rammed and shot by the Marines. She had no backup, was in immediate danger, and she realised that being a pain could lead to further bloodshed.

EDIT: OK Faust is right.


Last edited by CosmicCommander on Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Faust
Petty Officer Second Class


Posts : 24
Join date : 2012-06-16

PostSubject: Re: [Complaint] Plot Armor   Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:36 pm

Quote :
DESPITE the fact that it is a military vessel, containing a complement of marines (Which doesn't make much sense if the boats not going for planet fall or carrying Marine Supplies.)

I don't think that's a fair assessment. Today, marines are not "stationed" on ships: they deploy on them, actually, as part of an MEU. You can be a marine and fail to set foot on a ship throughout your entire deployment. However, Jutland RP is most certainly not set during today: it's a science-fiction roleplay. Applying today's standards - that is, that marines aren't stationed on ships, and merely deploy on them - is, in my opinion, wrong-headed thinking.

Space combat is a whole different ball game than naval combat. Engagement distances are routinely measured in hundreds, if not thousands of kilometers, and the Jutland is not a conventional frigate. It carries the standard six ASC guns for armament, as well as a hydrogen missile array, but it represents a new focus for the UEN in that its strengths lie not in its offensive capabilities, but its defensive ones. To this end, the Jutland carries advanced shielding technology, heavy armor, and EMMI, which can take the fight to the enemy electronically.

So why does Jutland need a marine contingent on-board? Well, I didn't write the canon- but it seems to me that if human ships are out-gunned and woefully lacking in the cyber-warfare department (to the point that, prior to the Jutland's manufacture, human ships had to turn off many of their ship's systems in order to prevent them from being used by the enemy), stationing a contingent of marines on board ships would be an easy way to both take the fight to the enemy - bypassing any of their advanced armor and shields by simply blowing a hole in the side of their ship and boarding the craft - and defend against the Cretin's attempts to do the same. A marine detachment on the Jutland may seem superfluous, then, but it's only standard UEN procedure- and having the extra insurance on-board in case something goes wrong with the UEN's latest and greatest spaceship would be well worth it.

That being said, they are superfluous, given that the Jutland was never intended to get into a fight on its way to Fate - as far as I'm aware, anyway - but I think my explanation is a fair one considering the roleplay's canon. Admins, feel free to correct me.

Quote :
DESPITE the fact that it contains no WMD payloads, and DESPITE the fact that the ship is ostensibly a "Science Vessel", the ship is woefully unprepared for Anti-Boarding measures. The single armory with one easily sealed chokepoint would DICTATE the use of concussive based explosive countermeasures against any boarding force. The narrow hallways and myriad billet rooms leading to all of the important parts of the ship would require AMPLE use of LETHAL EXPLOSIVES.

We have at least fifteen well-trained and well-equipped marines on board; you'd think that'd be more than enough to handle a modest boarding action against a ship that has less than 200 people. Not only that, but we also have a security team of roughly the same size. That's about a platoon of well-trained individuals - at least half of them trained in zero-gravity combat - versus whoever decides to board the ship.

But we're also on a spaceship. Explosives are not a good thing to have on a spaceship, for obvious reasons. Having holes blown in your ship is not a good idea, given that it's (most of the time, at least) exposed to the vacuum of space. Chokepoints, regardless of what you're using to plug them - be it conventional munitions or explosives - are going to be very difficult for any attacking force to penetrate. Why are explosives needed when conventional small arms fire can do the exact same job without causing catastrophic damage to the ship?

Quote :
MARINE SHIELDING is far too powerful, sixty rounds is two full magazines of a rifle, four from most of the pistols, and that's assuming every round hits. Unless the MARINE CONTINGENT consists of one guy with a broad sword, they're literally impossible to kill, wound, or detain when they're in their ARMOR. Close Combat is acceptably used and responded to by most players, but it seems most firefights, or rather any gunplay, revolve around the simple idea of being a step or so away from the inciting shooter. The shields do not work at point blank, but it seems the definition of point blank is not the distance at which the fire arm's elevation must be adjusted for bullet fall (Which is the definition.) but rather the distance of a visor from muzzle to skin. Accept that either PERSONAL SHIELDS are ineffective in the confines of the ship, or tone down the amount of resistance.

An excellent point- but it must be said that, so far, nobody has even attempted to withstand a volume of fire of that magnitude. So far, the people claiming that their armor has stopped a bullet have not been at point blank (several yards away, at least, and in the Jutland universe, the armor operates at the speed of light), and they've never tried to stop more than a handful of rounds. That doesn't make your point any less valid, though.

Quote :
THE EASE of conscience with which some characters doom entire swathes of the crew, is appalling, this is not exactly a plot armor in of itself, it is however armor to their characters.

I agree, but people roleplay their characters as they want to roleplay them. Say Kovalev wrote off killing everyone in cryosleep as an acceptable price to pay to get Lewandowski out of power (not that he did, of course)? I agree with you, though, but for a different reason.

Roleplay is a collaborative venture. One person can't do it all by themselves- or, if they did, they'd be in for a very boring time. You need to take other people's characters into account - even if it doesn't perfectly mesh with what you had in mind for the roleplay - in order for them to feel included and in order for the roleplay to be fun for everyone. Granted, in most roleplays, somebody has to win and lose- but that doesn't mean the roleplay has to be about that. The problem with Jutland is that people are treating this conflict between the crew and the ONI as a sort of team deathmatch. Either the crew wins of the ONI wins, and the only way to settle this is by Rambo-style traps, SWEP battles, and other shenanigans.

That's not the point of Jutland RP. The point isn't for the crew to win: it's for everyone to have a nice time roleplaying. People are trying to make this personal, when it really isn't: the people playing ONI aren't out to get you, they're out to achieve an in-character goal, and when people confuse the two, then we get situations like what happened yesterday.

The problem isn't so much "plot armor" as it is that people don't understand that they don't need to solve every single problem by PKing the opposition. That doesn't do anything but turn the server into cops versus robbers, and when that happens, roleplay goes down the tubes. People get angry that valid roleplay is being ended because somebody just feels like taking the expedient route and shooting them- and when people get angry, nobody wins. I understand that nobody wants to lose- but the people who don't want to lose are usually the people who don't realize that roleplay isn't red versus blue. You win some, you lose some: all that matters in the end is that people had a good time. Debating whether or not it's possible for characters to obtain grenades, have concussive rounds, or be able to bypass personal shielding is irrelevant: what we should be discussing is whether or not it's condusive to the roleplay in order to support these kinds of things.

TL;DR: People wouldn't need plot armor if we all stopped trying to shoot each other.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Rhydain
Petty Officer Second Class
avatar

Posts : 18
Join date : 2012-06-03
Age : 24
Location : Amurka

PostSubject: Re: [Complaint] Plot Armor   Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:00 pm

Actually, on the subject of Marine Shielding, I have shot one marine who deflected the round with a shield (From less than a foot away, literally an entire step.) and aimed a pistol at several who simply shrugged off the weapon because they "Didn't mind" it.

It wasn't simply a "That's nice, but I've got shit to do." It was a "That can't hurt me, so I'm gonna continue on my way."
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Faust
Petty Officer Second Class


Posts : 24
Join date : 2012-06-16

PostSubject: Re: [Complaint] Plot Armor   Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:08 pm

I stand corrected, then- but I did agree with you on marine shielding. It's far too much: I'd prefer both a reduction in the number of rounds it can take (let's try five instead of fifty) and an acknowledgment from its users that it doesn't work in extremely close quarters.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
ShadowDragon
Developer
avatar

Posts : 75
Join date : 2012-05-29
Age : 23
Location : UEN Phoenix

PostSubject: Re: [Complaint] Plot Armor   Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:14 am

What Faust said. I'd approve of dumbing it down to, say, 10%. PLUS, practically impossible to emit shields on soft parts, like for example, the limb joints or the neck.

E: Also for the armory, blame the map being shit.

_________________
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://jutland.forumotion.com
DrJTheo
Petty Officer Third Class


Posts : 9
Join date : 2012-06-03

PostSubject: Re: [Complaint] Plot Armor   Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:56 am

I'd like to drop my head in here (I've only read the original post as of the writing of this) and reply directly to this point:

"KOVALEV, easily turned off the shipboard A.I. (Despite knowing nothing of her functions, he is trained for intelligence operations, not engineering.) DESPITE the A.I. controlling the life support functions of the ship itself (And very likely the 100~ People on Ice)"

People seem to have fallen into the habit of referring to Kovalev directly for the actions of the ONI detachment in general. Please keep in mind that the ONI detachment was tailored from the start to include individuals that would be capable of running all segments of the ship in case ONI felt obliged to take control, which has occurred. ONI includes a number of technicians and engineers.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
ShadowDragon
Developer
avatar

Posts : 75
Join date : 2012-05-29
Age : 23
Location : UEN Phoenix

PostSubject: Re: [Complaint] Plot Armor   Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:01 pm

We're here to argue about the armour, Theo. ONI quit anyways.

Or something close to that.

_________________
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://jutland.forumotion.com
DrJTheo
Petty Officer Third Class


Posts : 9
Join date : 2012-06-03

PostSubject: Re: [Complaint] Plot Armor   Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:34 pm

It is perfectly valid to respond to that snippet as he chose to include it in the original post, thus making it relevant to your discussion.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Rhydain
Petty Officer Second Class
avatar

Posts : 18
Join date : 2012-06-03
Age : 24
Location : Amurka

PostSubject: Re: [Complaint] Plot Armor   Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:41 pm

DrJTheo wrote:
I'd like to drop my head in here (I've only read the original post as of the writing of this) and reply directly to this point:

"KOVALEV, easily turned off the shipboard A.I. (Despite knowing nothing of her functions, he is trained for intelligence operations, not engineering.) DESPITE the A.I. controlling the life support functions of the ship itself (And very likely the 100~ People on Ice)"

People seem to have fallen into the habit of referring to Kovalev directly for the actions of the ONI detachment in general. Please keep in mind that the ONI detachment was tailored from the start to include individuals that would be capable of running all segments of the ship in case ONI felt obliged to take control, which has occurred. ONI includes a number of technicians and engineers.

KOVALEV did the AI lightswitch himself, (Despite not being an AI tech to the most of my knowledge.)
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Spartan 5150
Petty Officer Third Class


Posts : 12
Join date : 2012-06-03

PostSubject: Re: [Complaint] Plot Armor   Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:41 pm

Rhydain wrote:
DrJTheo wrote:
I'd like to drop my head in here (I've only read the original post as of the writing of this) and reply directly to this point:

"KOVALEV, easily turned off the shipboard A.I. (Despite knowing nothing of her functions, he is trained for intelligence operations, not engineering.) DESPITE the A.I. controlling the life support functions of the ship itself (And very likely the 100~ People on Ice)"

People seem to have fallen into the habit of referring to Kovalev directly for the actions of the ONI detachment in general. Please keep in mind that the ONI detachment was tailored from the start to include individuals that would be capable of running all segments of the ship in case ONI felt obliged to take control, which has occurred. ONI includes a number of technicians and engineers.

KOVALEV did the AI lightswitch himself, (Despite not being an AI tech to the most of my knowledge.)

Flipping a set of breakers that cuts power physically is well within the means of a Character. Any Character...
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Rhydain
Petty Officer Second Class
avatar

Posts : 18
Join date : 2012-06-03
Age : 24
Location : Amurka

PostSubject: Re: [Complaint] Plot Armor   Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:44 pm

Spartan 5150 wrote:
Rhydain wrote:
DrJTheo wrote:
I'd like to drop my head in here (I've only read the original post as of the writing of this) and reply directly to this point:

"KOVALEV, easily turned off the shipboard A.I. (Despite knowing nothing of her functions, he is trained for intelligence operations, not engineering.) DESPITE the A.I. controlling the life support functions of the ship itself (And very likely the 100~ People on Ice)"

People seem to have fallen into the habit of referring to Kovalev directly for the actions of the ONI detachment in general. Please keep in mind that the ONI detachment was tailored from the start to include individuals that would be capable of running all segments of the ship in case ONI felt obliged to take control, which has occurred. ONI includes a number of technicians and engineers.

KOVALEV did the AI lightswitch himself, (Despite not being an AI tech to the most of my knowledge.)

Flipping a set of breakers that cuts power physically is well within the means of a Character. Any Character...

I know this, but I was making response to the fact that you're character cannot operate the AI as well as someone trained for it, so it makes little to no sense that he would argue that "ONI was prepared to run the ship themselves"

Especially considering if 5-6 guys could run the boat, we wouldn't have 100~
Back to top Go down
View user profile
DrJTheo
Petty Officer Third Class


Posts : 9
Join date : 2012-06-03

PostSubject: Re: [Complaint] Plot Armor   Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:16 pm

Rhydain wrote:
Spartan 5150 wrote:
Rhydain wrote:
DrJTheo wrote:
I'd like to drop my head in here (I've only read the original post as of the writing of this) and reply directly to this point:

"KOVALEV, easily turned off the shipboard A.I. (Despite knowing nothing of her functions, he is trained for intelligence operations, not engineering.) DESPITE the A.I. controlling the life support functions of the ship itself (And very likely the 100~ People on Ice)"

People seem to have fallen into the habit of referring to Kovalev directly for the actions of the ONI detachment in general. Please keep in mind that the ONI detachment was tailored from the start to include individuals that would be capable of running all segments of the ship in case ONI felt obliged to take control, which has occurred. ONI includes a number of technicians and engineers.

KOVALEV did the AI lightswitch himself, (Despite not being an AI tech to the most of my knowledge.)

Flipping a set of breakers that cuts power physically is well within the means of a Character. Any Character...

I know this, but I was making response to the fact that you're character cannot operate the AI as well as someone trained for it, so it makes little to no sense that he would argue that "ONI was prepared to run the ship themselves"

Especially considering if 5-6 guys could run the boat, we wouldn't have 100~

You don't need a ships full complement to run it. Have you ever heard of a skeleton crew? I'm not saying that we would be running the Jutland as efficiently as a full crew might, but we would be capable of moving things along. Consider the fact that a fairly significant portion of the ships personnel are either assigned to roles that are either redundant considering the number of personnel assigned to that task, and the large number of characters that have roles that have nothing to do with operating the Jutland.

ONI would be in trouble if the Jutland was involved in some kind of accident that required a large scale response, perhaps for damage control, but I think it's ridiculous to say that an extremely well trained group of 5-6 individuals could not handle piloting the ship, astro-navigation, operating the engines/hyperdrive, and a few other tasks. Most of those things were already effectively handled by a single individual prior to the apparently retconned ONI take over.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Admin
Admin
avatar

Posts : 36
Join date : 2012-05-28

PostSubject: Re: [Complaint] Plot Armor   Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:15 am

No, it is...seriously is ridiculous to say that 5 to 6 individuals would be able to handle piloting the ship, astro-navigation, engine maintenance, and every other task required by the ship when we require 200 to do it at any other point. 20, sure, they could do it; 5? God no. Past that, EMMI is not a standard AI. Even if a technician were brought along, they'd probably not be able to turn EMMI off unless they were specifically trained for EMMI, (Which would have required talking to Church about ONI beforehand so he could inform them what they'd need to know out of character) which I know they were not because several ONI who were supposedly "Experts" continuously did things that simply could not be done to the ship.

As for the armor, it apparently exhudes an electromagnetic field from within itself in order to repel ballistics, so that the armor cannot be pierced by normal rounds. Not even taking into account the fact that this would cause the armor to be bulkier and more expensive than any power armor, which was the reason that the UEN ceased using power armor, it also wouldn't be horribly effective against Cretin weapons, those being based mostly upon electricity. Past that, the armor is simply...bypassed extremely easily by myriads of human technology that we have today. The armor is, also, apparently experimental. Why experimental armor would be put into field testing in an area where it would be mostly ineffective (Close quarters) for the purpose that it was created (Marine engagements) is just beyond me.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://jutland.forumotion.com
Faust
Petty Officer Second Class


Posts : 24
Join date : 2012-06-16

PostSubject: Re: [Complaint] Plot Armor   Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:51 pm

Quote :
No, it is...seriously is ridiculous to say that 5 to 6 individuals would be able to handle piloting the ship, astro-navigation, engine maintenance, and every other task required by the ship when we require 200 to do it at any other point. 20, sure, they could do it; 5? God no. Past that, EMMI is not a standard AI. Even if a technician were brought along, they'd probably not be able to turn EMMI off unless they were specifically trained for EMMI, (Which would have required talking to Church about ONI beforehand so he could inform them what they'd need to know out of character) which I know they were not because several ONI who were supposedly "Experts" continuously did things that simply could not be done to the ship.

Just going off the roster, here, let's see what you'd need - at the absolute bare minimum - to run the ship. Not maintain it; not respond to a crisis; and not engage in combat. How many people would you need to just fly the ship somewhere?
  • Helmsman
  • Hyperdrive monitor
  • Hyperdrive monitor
  • AI technician
  • AI technician
  • Astrographer's Mate

I included both hyperdrive monitors and both AI technicians because both the hyperdrive and AI of the Jutland are experimental- and, as outlined in the canon, needed at least two technicians to operate them. Past that, if you just wanted to move the ship somewhere - that is, take it over and pilot it back to Earth or one of its colonies - all you'd really need is the helmsman to pilot it, the astrographer to figure out where you're going, the hyperdrive monitors to make sure you get there, and the AI technicians to make sure EMMI does the rest. I'm sure, in a pinch, that you could even operate EMMI and the hyperdrive with one person apiece. The trouble isn't getting the ship to go somewhere: it's doing the rest of the stuff.

Without a medical crew, what happens if someone gets hurt? How will you wake up the rest of the people from cryosleep without complications? Who is going to keep the waste management system running? What happens if there's a hull breach- who's going to repair that? What about keeping track of supplies? Shooting things? Operating the radar and sensor packages? Sending long-range communications?

As Theo said:

Quote :
ONI would be in trouble if the Jutland was involved in some kind of accident that required a large scale response, perhaps for damage control, but I think it's ridiculous to say that an extremely well trained group of 5-6 individuals could not handle piloting the ship, astro-navigation, operating the engines/hyperdrive, and a few other tasks. Most of those things were already effectively handled by a single individual prior to the apparently retconned ONI take over.

As to the armor: we're not debating its canonicity- we're debating whether or not it's fair to give that sort of armor to the marine contingent. It probably wouldn't be deployed on-board the Jutland, anyway: given that the marine contingent on-board the Jutland is literally just adherence to standard UEN procedure (that is, they're mostly a superfluous entity, given the Jutland's electronic warfare capabilities and advanced armor and shielding), it doesn't make much sense for them to be the focus of an entirely new armor program, especially when the ship isn't even expected to enter combat. It's a prototype armor: if they wanted field trials, why would they give it to a marine team that's unlikely to ever enter combat with it?

The armor is overpowered, useless on-board the ship, and probably wouldn't be on the Jutland in the first place. It should either be toned down significantly or retconned: it's just causing more problems than it's solving.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
The End
Petty Officer Second Class
avatar

Posts : 15
Join date : 2012-05-29
Age : 28
Location : West Virginia, United States

PostSubject: Re: [Complaint] Plot Armor   Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:44 pm

I'd be fine with saying that the shielding on marine armor has a minimal range required to activate (a foot - two feet perhaps? That way it still has practical close quarters use but isn't invincible to ambush) and some areas aren't protected by it. I'm sure most people in the UEMC would be fine with this compromise as well. Basically, where the ballistic armor is would be protected by the full capacity of the shielding. Torso, head, ect. But certain places that aren't armored up as heavily would have minimal or no protection.

Also, due to it being experimental, it may not always perform how anticipated. Sometimes it might not stop a round at all and the wearer would have to rely solely on the armor itself for example. Though that's obviously for the person in the armor to decide upon, not the shooter. But no one should be RPing as an unstoppable death machine, so.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: [Complaint] Plot Armor   

Back to top Go down
 
[Complaint] Plot Armor
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» Pro Armor's Rhino Baja Bumper half off!
» Pro Armor Commander Doors! Press release.
» Polaris RZR 4 Doors now available from Pro Armor
» Pro Armor 5-Point Harnesses!
» Armor All Extreme Wheel and Tire Cleaner

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Jutland! Space times. :: Admin Boards :: Suggestions & Complaints-
Jump to: